It is near impossible in my mind that Bernie can arrange things such that I can trust Hillary as president. I'd rather see the whole American experiment melt down and start again.
6.16.2016
### must read Washington Post article on President Obama as consoler in Chief.....### He has lost my respect as a great historical leader. Too many Horrors executed at his hand, too many Horrors left unblocked by his voice and or body. But I continue to Revere aspects of his Humanity such as described in this article here. There is greatness in his soul. And yes, although very unlikely, it is possible that he is faced with circumstances that explain and make impossible to avoid the horrible crimes that I hold him responsible for. I may never know.
### He has lost my respect as a great historical leader. Too many Horrors executed at his hand, too many Horrors left unblocked by his voice and or body. But I continue to Revere aspects of his Humanity such as described in this article here. There is greatness in his soul. And yes, although very unlikely, it is possible that he is faced with circumstances that explain and make impossible to avoid the horrible crimes that I hold him responsible for. I may never know.
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/06/17/us/politics/long-and-genuine-hugs-shooting-victims-relatives-recall-obamas-empathy.html?referer=https://news.google.com
6.12.2016
***** THIS. Dr. Norman Finkelstein. Regarding Tel Aviv, the Palestinians have no choice but to revolt
6.11.2016
### Extraordinary moral stature. The great change agents, the Agents of positive change, throughout history are of an extraordinary moral stature. Indisputable, right? How.........
### Extraordinary moral stature. The great change agents, the Agents of positive change, throughout history are of an extraordinary moral stature. Indisputable, right? How many activists since the assassination of Martin Luther King don't totally reject measuring themselves, let alone being measured by others, against that same yardstick? Practically all, they incinerate anyone that dares go there. Moral stature is everything to the true would-be Catalyst for moral change. And it doesn't even make it into the discussion, into the consideration, into the planning these last fifty years in America. Everything but. This is why there's no hope.
***** Eureka! The missing proof that justice is a necessary but entirely insufficient anti violent goal: throughout my life I have wanted Justice to be a sufficient goal. 15 years ago I was.........
***** Eureka! The missing proof that justice is a necessary but entirely insufficient anti violent goal:
Throughout my life I have wanted Justice to be a sufficient goal. 15 years ago I was told by someone that didn't like me so much, an African American female pastor in a prestigious completely White Main Line Philadelphia Church, ''James, you love Justice more than anyone I have ever met.'' ''No,'' I respectfully replied. ''Thank you, and I can't explain just why, I know what you're referring to in me, but that isn't it. I think what you're seeing is that I may love living beings, all of creation, more than anyone that you have ever met.'' I couldn't explain why better than that. I couldn't explain why to myself, but I knew it deep in my spirit.
Several years ago in an extremely deep study of the theological scholar Dominic Crossan on the historical Jesus I almost became persuaded he was correct, when he asserted, as later has also done Harvard African American Scholar Cornel West, that Justice is loving made publicly manifest. Subsequently I realized that that is sometimes true but not necessarily true. Think of those that wield Justice, True Justice out of hatred, out of blind self-righteousness, arrogance, evil. Think of Inspector Javert in Les Mis.
But that was not sufficient proof that justice is an insufficient goal of the anti-violent warrior.
The proof, not the proof to you, the proof to me, just clicked into place as I pedaled this 200 lb ELFusion vehicle from the Washington Monument to my abode 3 miles away. In the 90-degree heat, dehydrated, mostly uphill and with a debilitating chest cold in its third day.
Several pieces clicked into place.
1. Gandhi said that physical force is a superior choice in the case where one's wife is being raped and the only way that the husband can stop the rape is with physical Force. Gandhi cited this example many times. What clicked into place is that he never said that physical Force was justified in protecting oneself, and he always behaved as though it absolutely was not. This may be an oversight but I think not. Why would that be?
2. Gandhi was not about his own life, ultimately he was not about the life or even the Dignity of the wife being raped, nor of the husband. He was about achieving an infinitely larger good, a prevailing Justice for All of humanity, indeed for all of creation. In being about winning that greater good it is necessary to tap into the ultimate power in the universe which he described as Soul Force, truth Force, the love of a mother for her child. He cited the love of a mother for her child as the ultimate power that he tried to tap into. He never said the love of a mother for justice. He never said the love of a mother for herself. Why? Because neither of them are as powerful a moral Force for the engagement of the mass of passive onlookers as the love of a mother for her child, which involves self-sacrifice.
3. That shows the third proof which you can prove to yourself I suspect. Ask yourself which moves you more, the mother protecting herself, or the mother sacrificing her life for her child? I did not ask if you were unmoved by the mother trying to protect herself. Of course you are, of course you should be as am I. But which moves you more? The Mother Out of Love sacrificing or risking her life for her child! The Ultimate Force in the universe that the anti-violent, loving, nonviolent Warrior devotes their very being to embodying for the joy of it, because they can't do otherwise, tapping into is that Force which can only be activated in the onlookers, you in the question I asked you a moment ago, can only be tapped into in the onlookers when they witness someone offering or giving their life for a cause Beyond and greater than themselves equivalent to a greater good for another or a greater good for others. The Selma Marchers were putting their body In Harm's Way for their children, for their race, for their brothers and sisters. The Freedom Riders, Alice Paul and her sisters, the tens of thousands of Egyptians in Tahrir square, Malala, the school children in Soweto. And finally, number
4. The anti-violent Warrior the loving Warrior, cannot tap into the ultimate power within them self for justice, neither Justice for everyone, or just just for their self. We don't work that way. We're not built that way. It's a function of our DNA. Justice is a motivating force. It is not as motivating a force as the heart connected to the well-being of another(s) and thereby being engaged to protect the life or the Dignity of the other. 'Man hath no greater love than to lay down his life for his brother.' The ultimate need, the ultimate motivating force, of the healthy human being is meaning, the potentially great meaning to the life of another. The definitive work on this is Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for meaning. Whether one got out of the death camp alive in Nazi Germany he observed was not a function of how healthy and strong the individual was coming in. It was a function of how desperately important the inhabitant perceived it to be that they survive so that they could get out to help someone else, the wife, or in the case of Frankel, a much larger Community by publishing his psychological treatise.
The ultimate motivation that mother nature gave us was not the desire for self-preservation, or for justice, even for justice for the larger group. It is to protect the very lives and dignity of others. Yes, she gave us the desire for justice, and the drsire to protect oneself. But if that's all she gave us, we essentially socially dependent species from the very beginning, then we would not have survived through the Millenia. She gave us the ultimate motivation of caring more about the group then about our own lives. This is the only Force sufficient to enable the anti violent Warrior to go as far and as deep with as much courage and selflessness as an Alice Paul, Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Muhammad Ali, and the others that we Revere have to go. This is a huge step for me.
In part I departed from the Democracy spring action a month ago because I sensed it was only about Justice. I do love justice, immensely, but I knew even then Justice is not enough. It's too little too late. Part of my long hesitation to get involved in support of what Bernie Sanders was doing was because although my soul realized that he was going for a much greater good for and all of creation , many most or near all of his followers were simply pursuing Justice and in large part Justice for themselves. I'm not opposed to that per se. I don't deny their right to do so. But I knew deep in my soul it was too little too late.
Now I have the proof I was looking for. The pursuit of justice as an end goal now is way too little way too late. These are the final nanosecond on the clock and they are ticking down.
### Devoting every penny you can possibly spare, every moment you can possibly spare, to supporting the campaign that Bernie Sanders is prosecuting is the best possible investment you can make for planet Earth at the moment.
### Devoting every penny you can possibly spare, every moment you can possibly spare, to supporting the campaign that Bernie Sanders is prosecuting is the best possible investment you can make for planet Earth at the moment.
***** Gallup poll. Americans most dissatisfied with state of the country since Carter
Article. The Association for Investment in Popular Action Committees writes to New York Governor Andrew Cuomo declaring its support for BDS and asking to be included in the list of boycott-supporting organizations the state of New York will be creating following the governor's executive order.....'..
***** Father of victim of Tel Aviv attack says Israel responsible for driving Palestinians to despair.
***** I fear Hillary much more than I fear Trump. Hillary is the figurehead of the neocon neoliberal zombie horde that has been destroying Earth since Reagan and massively accelerated by Clinton Bill. Trump is a lone........
***** I fear Hillary much more than I fear Trump. Hillary is the figurehead of the neocon neoliberal zombie horde that has been destroying Earth since Reagan and massively accelerated by Clinton Bill. Trump is a lone clown and Hillary's horde can neither control him nor buy him so they will fight him and that may tremendously blunt what other evil he could do. Yes, he would do massive damage. But infinitely less than Hillary's Huns that have a 30-year running start. And, the only folks with enough education to stop the impending horror if they elect Hillary are already under her spell and there goes the next four years. I fear Hillary much more than Trump. I cannot imagine any circumstance under which I will vote for that vile creature Hillary. I'll be influenced by what Burnie does but my guess is I will either write in Bernie or I will vote Trump.
***** Violence: violating what is right, violating the rights of others. It is absolutely not as simple as whether physical force is used. Treating the police as a group rather than individual human beings under all circumstances is violating their right to be treated as a human being. Shooting someone about to kill a toddler because that was the only way to stop them is not violence. That does not violate the rights of the would-be Killer.
***** Violence: violating what is right, violating the rights of others. It is absolutely not as simple as whether physical force is used. Treating the police as a group rather than individual human beings under all circumstances is violating their right to be treated as a human being. Shooting someone about to kill a toddler because that was the only way to stop them is not violence. That does not violate the rights of the would-be Killer.
6.08.2016
### Not Human Rights, activists, but rather human rights catalysts. I don't care about words so much but I do care about Concepts. Although I have paid a high price in the........
### Not Human Rights, activists, but rather human rights catalysts. I don't care about words so much but I do care about Concepts. Although I have paid a high price in the last decade-and-a-half for fighting against the dilution and perversion of the word and concept 'activists,' like quite a few such words I think it was Ill chosen to begin with. Catalyst strikes me as a much truer capture of what Gandhi and those alongside him were and did , and Martin Luther King and those alongside of him, the tens of thousands of young people in Tahrir square, Malala, Alice Paul and the hundreds that fought alongside her, the Freedom Riders, SNCC.... They made of themselves such an extremely different thing, such a new extraordinarily moral thing , even though relatively miniscule in number versus their country and world population, exactly as a catalyst does they caused a hugely disproportionate change through the large population. They didn't try to manipulate. They didn't try to control. They didn't try to force... other than themselves, over whom they exercised huge self-control, discipline, molding themselves into something so radically pure, radically pure anti-violence, radically courageous loving, that the infinitely larger numbers could not avoid being changed by them. In nature as I understand it there is little if anything so relatively powerful as the catalyst, minute qualities of an element that fundamentally change an infinitely larger whole. Those who I have envied and admired throughout history, those who I try to be worthy of following, because of their unique effectiveness, I understand to be catalysts. They fashioned themselves into catalysts at enormous personal cost. This is what I strive to be and what I wish for others to strive to be. Human rights catalysts. Yes, Catalysts can be totally ineffective. They can become what is needed but if the nature of the mass surrounding them is impervious to reacting, incapable of reacting, protected from reacting... the Catalyst has no effect. But where I see profound progress in human morality throughout history it has been such a catalytic reaction that brought it about. I see no other chance. I see no other hope. I see no other way. Well, I see an infinite variety of ways that require a much lower price on the part of the would-be change agent that hold the promise of doing nothing but killing what little time is left for all decent future. Yes, 'Be the change you wish to see in the world.'
### IF YOU HAVE NOT YET, must read now. Spirit is everything. The True activist is the one possessed by a selfless heroic nearly impossibly moral spirit. Such a spirit does not rest until it has a deep moral factual understanding of the situation, the evil and the need, and the scrupulously moral basis for action, and then it cannot remain still but is propelled into heroic action. The specific..... article, New Waves of climate insurgents.
### IF YOU HAVE NOT YET, must read now. Spirit is everything. The True activist is the one possessed by a selfless heroic nearly impossibly moral spirit. Such a spirit does not rest until it has a deep moral factual understanding of the situation, the evil and the need, and the scrupulously moral basis for action, and then it cannot remain still but is propelled into heroic action. The specific and general thoughtfulness of this article and these activists and their work is very rare and very relevant and very able to be copied by those who wish to become serious advocates for change.
http://www.commondreams.org/views/2016/03/01/new-wave-climate-insurgents-defines-itself-law-enforcers
6.07.2016
### This preemptive mass media coronation of Hillary taught me three things things: 1. Even the one in a million that I thought was an uncorrupted human needs to be suspected, 2. Rachel Maddow and Chris Hayes are corporate whores, immoral chameleons, 3. The power of greed and therefore those who hold the money is even greater than I thought.
### This preemptive mass media coronation of Hillary taught me three things things: 1. Even the one in a million that I thought was an uncorrupted human needs to be suspected, 2. Rachel Maddow and Chris Hayes are corporate whores, immoral chameleons, 3. The power of greed and therefore those who hold the money is even greater than I thought.
6.06.2016
### I would say that in my learning, experience, practice, observation, the true activist devotes their every breath to attempting to pay as much as possible of the price NOW, whatever price, including the ultimate price, for a better world... for others. I can think of.......
### I would say that in my learning, experience, practice, observation, the true activist devotes their every breath to attempting to pay as much as possible of the price NOW, whatever price, including the ultimate price, for a better world... for others. I can think of no exceptions. This is what they showed with their choices without hesitation. This is what they prepared and prepared and prepared and prepared... to do. Gandhi's words on the subject, 'I'm talking about the love of a mother for her child.' Anyone that is seriously interested in this topic that has not watched the PBS documentary, Freedom Riders, has really disabled themselves.
***** Though I've long stated he's our greatest intellectual, Chris Hedges, I've also long been concerned that something wasn't right. He's no revolutionary, I think. He's just one more Champion for violence. Just one more Champion for inverting who is oppressed and who does the oppressing. Who imposes, and who does the imposing. The world he wants is not the world I want.
***** Though I've long stated he's our greatest intellectual, Chris Hedges, I've also long been concerned that something wasn't right. He's no revolutionary, I think. He's just one more Champion for violence. Just one more Champion for inverting who is oppressed and who does the oppressing. Who imposes, and who does the imposing. The world he wants is not the world I want.
***** How the f*** is it that it takes a lifetime to become an effective surgeon, years to become an effective nurse, years or a lifetime to become an effective artist, years to become an effective Soldier or police person, years to become an effective gymnast or skier or a surfer... But two hours, or just a momentary self-declaration, to become an activist? 'Act' the change.......
***** How the f*** is it that it takes a lifetime to become an effective surgeon, years to become an effective nurse, years or a lifetime to become an effective artist, years to become an effective Soldier or police person, years to become an effective gymnast or skier or a surfer... But two hours, or just a momentary self-declaration, to become an activist?
'Act' the change you want to see?
'Pretend' the change you want to see?
'Occasionally use' the change you want to see?
'Mimic' the change you wish to see?
'Put on' the change you wish to see?...
(BECOME, and) BE the change you wish to see in the world... Truth-force... Soul Force... Anti-violence... Loving.
Gandhi devoted a lifetime to trying to be, trying to become, the change he wished to see in the world, the embodiment of Truth Force, the embodiment of (TOUGH) Loving, the embodiment of Soul Force. In the end he said he had just barely scratched the surface. Was he a fool? Did he have no idea of what was involved? Was he lying? One would think so if one looks at nearly all of the so-called activists since King's assassination who think it is something that they learn in two hour training, or a decision that they make, a self-declaration, or that it is as simple as not using physical violence, and then they're all set... they're activists, just like King, just like Gandhi, and the thousands alongside them that would pay any price even death rather than violate that spirit. Magic!!! So, it turns out there is a free lunch! Would it not be so nice if Muhammad Ali had not had to devote his life to becoming the greatest at both boxing and anti-violence? Would it not be nice if the Freedom Riders, if dr. King and those fighting alongside of him, had not had to go through rigorous rigorous rigorous, in King's case, lifelong training, to become that change, to become the embodiment of non-violence, to become the embodiment of loving, anti-violence?
How the f*** is it that it takes a lifetime to become an effective surgeon, years to become an effective nurse, years to become an effective gymnast or skier or a surfer... But two hours, or just a momentary self-declaration, to become an activist?
Ah, the magic of self-delusion. Sadly, Now such self-delusion is planetary suicide. Does anyone love the future enough to wake up in time? If not you, who? If not here, where? If not now, when?
### So, Hedges, you are down with violating the rights of others to peacefully Assemble? Just what kind of world is it that your proposed violence will give us? The answer is, just one different group imposing their will on others. Violence by whatever name is violence. I don't want your world. I'm so disappointed in you. Have you become what you hate? '' shutdown the Democratic National Convention.''
http://m.truthdig.com/report/item/shut_down_the_democratic_national_convention_20160605
............
... I admit to being conflicted on my comment above. But I stand by it. I think it is insane that the young people of this country don't come to Washington DC and so fill every street corner that the city ceases to function until it implements Marshall Plan level policy to stop global warming, for example. But to shut down, shut down, a meeting of fellow citizens, no matter how corrupt, no matter how revolting? How is this not inviting citizens that disagree with my policies to shutdown my peaceful meeting? I am opposed to the Democratic party just as I am opposed to the Nazi party. But if I violate their rights then I am violating my rights, and more importantly, I am violating the rights that I am bound to protect with my life for all species. Hate begets hate. Violence begets violence. There is only one set of rights, that which applies to us all. An attack on what is Right for any creature is an attack on what is Right for every one of us. Violence, violating the rights of others to get what one wants, that's the world we have. I don't want more of it.
Fb reply: James, I think you are misinterpreting this. He is not calling for violence. These homeless and impoverished people were denied the right to peacefully assemble. That is a Constitutional right denied in the city where the Constitution was written! Nowhere does he promote violence. You interpret "shut down" as a violent expression. I disagree. If someone is murdering someone else, and you try to stop them, are you violating their rights??
James: Thank you for your thoughtful reply. Please be sure you have read what I just added to my comment immediately above this one. Not that it will persuade you differently. I don't write to persuade. I write to share what I am persuaded of. Yes, I am absolutely responding to the wording shut it down. The DNC is a citizen group. It is different than a governmental group in my view, Morally. It is different than a corporate group, morally. And the nature of the assembly, no matter how much I may detest it with every fiber of my being,, I do not have the right to shut it down nor does anyone else. To demonstrate against it? Absolutely. I would say there is a duty to demonstrate against it. Language matters. The headline is shut it down. Yes, I absolutely respond to that as should anyone.
Friend: Please see my comment below and also consider that lobbyists have a huge hand in putting the DNC together. It will be run by bankers and lobbyists. This is much more a corporate assembly than a citizens assembly. The whole "people side" of it is a sham, theater for the controlled masses. To stand in support of such a gathering is to support war lords and those who impoverish our inner cities. Just my opinion...
James: Which part of my wording, duty to protest, is unclear? Again, I hope you seriously consider what I've said. I have considered what you have shared. I think you are not seeing the distinction between violence and nonviolence. I think Hedges article provides an important opportunity to see that whatever one does one should accept in return. So, if you are fine with the state or fellow citizens shutting down your meetings then you should feel fine with Hedges language to shut down the DNC. Otherwise, not so much. And then there's the matter of incitement. Are you okay with the violence against the Trump demonstrators in California? I suspect not. Are you okay with language that would incite such violence? I suspect not. This is not a time for amateurish, thoughtless, self-indulgent, acting out, Behavior. No, I am not accusing you or Hedges of that. I am cautioning against it. I've shared what I have to share. Be well
James: I think we have a shared what we have to share on this. Be well
Friend 2: James, thank you for posting this article. I will be on the South side of city hall, as close to Honksla and Chris as possible. I AM NOT going to Philly to solely support brother Bernie Sanders, although I will participate in many activities "permitted" in FDR park. I do not want to get arrested the first day, but if I have to I will. I will go to Philly with peace in my heart, revolution in my soul and a very practical approach to what the FBI, Homeland Security and their patsies the Philadelphia police force have in mind for those of us that will be Heard and not Herded. I grew up in South Philly and coming home in more ways than one. I hope to see you there as I know your convictions are even deeper than mine.
James: I appreciate your thoughtful and constructive words. On those days I will be fighting, every breath, for an anti-violent, loving world, of that we can both be certain. Whether I will be in Philly or not depends on whether on those days I view the that is my best means of serving creation. Yes, Sanders is a wonderful human being, a godsend. My donation of virtually all of my meager savings this month to his campaign was not to him, but to the revolution he is trying to lead. He would be the first to agree, is the first to agree, that he is not the revolution. He is the spirit of the Revolution I believe, and those who embody that Spirit are also of the revolution. It is that spirit that my life is devoted to embody with my every breath in whatever Direction, in whatever form, I think can best serve creation.
6.04.2016
***** Our, sick, pathological, ecocidal, mania religion of winning, being a winner, was instrumental throughout my life in keeping me from being a decent, responsible, humane human being. I didn't.........
***** Our, sick, pathological, ecocidal, mania religion of winning, being a winner, was instrumental throughout my life in keeping me from being a decent, responsible, humane human being. I didn't realize it. I don't know that it's a plot. But it is such an Insidious way of framing the task of Being Human in terms of consumption, domination, exploitation, Conquest. Insidious. I hope you wake up before I did. Central to the Life Choices of all those throughout history that I Revere was somehow rejecting this insane notion. It has taken me a lifetime to learn that the joyful path, the Humane, sane path is to work in almost the opposite direction. No, the purpose isn't to fail, but the purpose is to do what's right and in a culture, a world, as near absolute death as is 2016 Earth, to select the path of trying to do what is right, trying to do what is needed by our neediest sisters and brothers, is to select the near certainly losing path. I shall select this near certainly losing path for the rest of my days for the otherwise unattainable joy and peace of Heart and Hope of it.
6.03.2016
### 2015. I find this very credible and enormously enlightening. ''It is crucial to understand though that ISIS, terror’s modern manifestation and expression, carries no tie with Islam. NONE!' A History of Wahhabism and the Hijacking of the Muslim faith
6.01.2016
The only Power, the only Power, the only Power... we have to make the world truly better is moral power, the power of our example, what Gandhi called Soul Force. Everything else is an illusion, and kills what little time we may have left. Hugs
The only Power, the only Power, the only Power... we have to make the world truly better is moral power, the power of our example, what Gandhi called Soul Force. Everything else is an illusion, and kills what little time we may have left. Hugs
5.30.2016
### No credit to me, I didn't understand what I was doing, but since the beginning my nervous system has fought being made something else than my human nature by our culture. And for.....
### No credit to me, I didn't understand what I was doing, but since the beginning my nervous system has fought being made something else than my human nature by our culture. And for the last 15 years I have worked endlessly to try and rip out whatever wiring had made it inside me from our sick culture. Despite all that, when I saw the following photo the other day it just hit me square between the eyes. Like a revelation.
***** Revolution Is Possible when very large masses of people literally can't live with the status quo any longer, even if they don't recognize that fact within themselves. I don't see that in the world's Center of Empire, America, today. Things are going to have to get a lot worse.
Revolution Is Possible when very large masses of people literally can't live with the status quo any longer, even if they don't recognize that fact within themselves. I don't see that in the world's Center of Empire, America, today. Things are going to have to get a lot worse.
5.29.2016
Every successful nonviolent revolution of which I am aware has chosen to understand that not the men and women in uniform but the system behind them was their enemy and therefore there point of attack. I see none of the wisdom of those prior efforts, only the childish impulse to hate and blame the nearest possible object. The result will be catastrophic.
Every successful nonviolent revolution of which I am aware has chosen to understand that not the men and women in uniform but the system behind them was their enemy and therefore there point of attack. I see none of the wisdom of those prior efforts, only the childish impulse to hate and blame the nearest possible object. The result will be catastrophic.
Nobody is serious about stopping global warming, or stopping corporate fascism, that is not approaching near zero in personal consumption and ownership.
Nobody is serious about stopping global warming, or stopping corporate fascism, that is not approaching near zero in personal consumption and ownership.
Silencing America as It Prepares for War by John Pilger
5.28.2016
We can't truly love ourselves until we love the neediest more than ourselves.
We can't truly love ourselves until we love the neediest more than ourselves.
### Everything I value in myself came from my dad. Most......
### Everything I value in myself came from my dad. Most amazing person, most Godly, most loving, I've ever encountered personally. Incredible blessing to me. Immense over-privilege mine, and responsibility. Just the other day I was wondering what he would think if he saw me now. Lol. The last he knew me he was in his two-million-dollar house which he had created for us, not for himself, in one of the wealthiest towns in the world. He was born into poverty. Material property. I think he would be very surprised to see me, but I think he would smile, shake his head, and not be displeased. Yeah, I can hear a warm laugh. He's been physically gone from me for about 30 years now. He and my mom were both on their second marriage and had me very late in life. Some apples fall close to the tree, some fall very far away as did my two female siblings.